NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by tribecalledquest » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:57 pm

real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:49 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:51 pm
This is the best take I have read on it all.

Schools don't have to pay players. Just let them make their own deals on other stuff.

https://sports.yahoo.com/solution-colle ... 08228.html
If these players need the money so bad then they should go over seas and play instead of attending college. I hate that they have the one and done's in college.
That's a ridiculous answer. Are you not a fan of free market capitalism?
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by Redbird CC Fan » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:08 pm

real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:49 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:51 pm
This is the best take I have read on it all.

Schools don't have to pay players. Just let them make their own deals on other stuff.

https://sports.yahoo.com/solution-colle ... 08228.html
If these players need the money so bad then they should go over seas and play instead of attending college. I hate that they have the one and done's in college.
A school paying a player aside, if a shoe company, a YouTube channel, a company for endorsements, or even some booster gift a player money, or whatever wants to pay a player without it costing the school a dime, what's the problem? It costs the school nothing. It has ZERO impact on the school's athletic or other budgets. The fact there are rules against it is what causes all this sleaze. Adidas should be able to pay a kid to go to an Adidas school if they want to do so.
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by real fan » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:25 pm

tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:57 pm
real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:49 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:51 pm
This is the best take I have read on it all.

Schools don't have to pay players. Just let them make their own deals on other stuff.

https://sports.yahoo.com/solution-colle ... 08228.html
If these players need the money so bad then they should go over seas and play instead of attending college. I hate that they have the one and done's in college.
That's a ridiculous answer. Are you not a fan of free market capitalism?
Not under these circumstances. They already get free tuition, room and board plus so many more incentives that most do not and anytime you bring money into it there will always be bigger problems which is exactly why the FBI is now involved in this mess.

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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by real fan » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:34 pm

Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:08 pm
real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:49 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:51 pm
This is the best take I have read on it all.

Schools don't have to pay players. Just let them make their own deals on other stuff.

https://sports.yahoo.com/solution-colle ... 08228.html
If these players need the money so bad then they should go over seas and play instead of attending college. I hate that they have the one and done's in college.
A school paying a player aside, if a shoe company, a YouTube channel, a company for endorsements, or even some booster gift a player money, or whatever wants to pay a player without it costing the school a dime, what's the problem? It costs the school nothing. It has ZERO impact on the school's athletic or other budgets. The fact there are rules against it is what causes all this sleaze. Adidas should be able to pay a kid to go to an Adidas school if they want to do so.
You forgot to mention a bookie paying a player to miss a few shots so they do not cover the spread. The school still wins the game so in your world it did not cost the school a dime.
Also it sounds like in your world there are no rules which would be total chaos. Like many have said money is the root of all evil and in this case it is spot on.

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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by Redbird CC Fan » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:50 pm

real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:34 pm
Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:08 pm
real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:49 pm

If these players need the money so bad then they should go over seas and play instead of attending college. I hate that they have the one and done's in college.
A school paying a player aside, if a shoe company, a YouTube channel, a company for endorsements, or even some booster gift a player money, or whatever wants to pay a player without it costing the school a dime, what's the problem? It costs the school nothing. It has ZERO impact on the school's athletic or other budgets. The fact there are rules against it is what causes all this sleaze. Adidas should be able to pay a kid to go to an Adidas school if they want to do so.
You forgot to mention a bookie paying a player to miss a few shots so they do not cover the spread. The school still wins the game so in your world it did not cost the school a dime.
Also it sounds like in your world there are no rules which would be total chaos. Like many have said money is the root of all evil and in this case it is spot on.
Throwing a game or shaving points is illegal and hurts the integrity of the game. Getting paid to endorse a product isn't. In fact not allowing players to earn money while playing makes it MORE likely criminal elements are involved not less. Also, you would have fewer 1 and done players if players could earn money while going to school not less.

As a very practical example, many graduate students get free tuition, health insurance and a monthly stipend in exchange for spending X hours a week doing research. The better the student, the more they make, etc. Absolutely nothing prevents the graduate students from working and earning an infinite amount of money outside of this. Why is the fact these students happen to be athletes make this any different?

The only illegal elements here are the money laundering securities fraud and people not declaring the money on their taxes. The actual giving money to the players like Adidas did, not anything illegal about it what so over.
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by tribecalledquest » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:54 pm

Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:50 pm
real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:34 pm
Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:08 pm


A school paying a player aside, if a shoe company, a YouTube channel, a company for endorsements, or even some booster gift a player money, or whatever wants to pay a player without it costing the school a dime, what's the problem? It costs the school nothing. It has ZERO impact on the school's athletic or other budgets. The fact there are rules against it is what causes all this sleaze. Adidas should be able to pay a kid to go to an Adidas school if they want to do so.
You forgot to mention a bookie paying a player to miss a few shots so they do not cover the spread. The school still wins the game so in your world it did not cost the school a dime.
Also it sounds like in your world there are no rules which would be total chaos. Like many have said money is the root of all evil and in this case it is spot on.
Throwing a game or shaving points is illegal and hurts the integrity of the game. Getting paid to endorse a product isn't. In fact not allowing players to earn money while playing makes it MORE likely criminal elements are involved not less. Also, you would have fewer 1 and done players if players could earn money while going to school not less.

As a very practical example, many graduate students get free tuition, health insurance and a monthly stipend in exchange for spending X hours a week doing research. The better the student, the more they make, etc. Absolutely nothing prevents the graduate students from working and earning an infinite amount of money outside of this. Why is the fact these students happen to be athletes make this any different?

The only illegal elements here are the money laundering securities fraud and people not declaring the money on their taxes. The actual giving money to the players like Adidas did, not anything illegal about it what so over.
Redbird....there is no logic behind the argument that real fan and others make. It’s 100% emotion based. No logical person who believes in the American ideal of free markets, capitalism, etc can back the current system unless they are just scared that the sport they love may change.

The NBA is FAR less corrupt than college basketball. Why? The illusion of amateurism isn’t there. Guys get paid and control their own ability to earn off the court.
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by Redbird CC Fan » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:13 pm

tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:54 pm
Redbird....there is no logic behind the argument that real fan and others make. It’s 100% emotion based. No logical person who believes in the American ideal of free markets, capitalism, etc can back the current system unless they are just scared that the sport they love may change.

The NBA is FAR less corrupt than college basketball. Why? The illusion of amateurism isn’t there. Guys get paid and control their own ability to earn off the court.
I think a valid discussion can be had around schools paying players directly. Leaping from college players getting paid for endorsements to meaning players can then cheat by throwing games or shaving points is just a logical fallacy I can't tolerate. And please don't let anyone get started about how these situations are somehow new.

UCLA had the same stuff going on with Wooden as a coach.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Gil ... sinessman)
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by real fan » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 pm

Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:13 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:54 pm
Redbird....there is no logic behind the argument that real fan and others make. It’s 100% emotion based. No logical person who believes in the American ideal of free markets, capitalism, etc can back the current system unless they are just scared that the sport they love may change.

The NBA is FAR less corrupt than college basketball. Why? The illusion of amateurism isn’t there. Guys get paid and control their own ability to earn off the court.
I think a valid discussion can be had around schools paying players directly. Leaping from college players getting paid for endorsements to meaning players can then cheat by throwing games or shaving points is just a logical fallacy I can't tolerate. And please don't let anyone get started about how these situations are somehow new.

UCLA had the same stuff going on with Wooden as a coach.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Gil ... sinessman)
Everything is a fallacy to you when someone disagrees. I guess you know everything and the colleges know nothing.End of discussion.

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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by Redbird CC Fan » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:52 pm

real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 pm
Everything is a fallacy to you when someone disagrees. I guess you know everything and the colleges know nothing.End of discussion.
Rather than take your ball and going home, answer a simple question. Why is a normal college student like I mentioned above who gets a scholarship able to make as much money as they want on their own time while an athlete isn't just because they are an athlete?

The only argument you have made is "money is bad". Well why is money only bad if you are a college athlete? College athletics has been a huge, multi billion dollar industry forever. So if "money is bad", the only solution would be to end it entirely. Then colleges could go back to education only pursuits without being spoiled by the evils of money.
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by JD » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:56 pm

Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:52 pm
real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 pm
Everything is a fallacy to you when someone disagrees. I guess you know everything and the colleges know nothing.End of discussion.
Rather than take your ball and going home, answer a simple question. Why is a normal college student like I mentioned above who gets a scholarship able to make as much money as they want on their own time while an athlete isn't just because they are an athlete?

The only argument you have made is "money is bad". Well why is money only bad if you are a college athlete? College athletics has been a huge, multi billion dollar industry forever. So if "money is bad", the only solution would be to end it entirely. Then colleges could go back to education only pursuits without being spoiled by the evils of money.
Is your last point coming down the road?
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by quince » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:05 pm

JD wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:56 pm
Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:52 pm
real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 pm
Everything is a fallacy to you when someone disagrees. I guess you know everything and the colleges know nothing.End of discussion.
Rather than take your ball and going home, answer a simple question. Why is a normal college student like I mentioned above who gets a scholarship able to make as much money as they want on their own time while an athlete isn't just because they are an athlete?

The only argument you have made is "money is bad". Well why is money only bad if you are a college athlete? College athletics has been a huge, multi billion dollar industry forever. So if "money is bad", the only solution would be to end it entirely. Then colleges could go back to education only pursuits without being spoiled by the evils of money.
Is your last point coming down the road?
Maybe you should ask Alex Petrakis about it. Or the USAF vet who is a basketball expert.

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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by real fan » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:11 pm

Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:52 pm
real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 pm
Everything is a fallacy to you when someone disagrees. I guess you know everything and the colleges know nothing.End of discussion.
Rather than take your ball and going home, answer a simple question. Why is a normal college student like I mentioned above who gets a scholarship able to make as much money as they want on their own time while an athlete isn't just because they are an athlete?

Thee only argument you have made is "money is bad". Well why is money only bad if you are a college athlete? College athletics has been a huge, multi billion dollar industry forever. So if "money is bad", the only solution would be to end it entirely. Then colleges could go back to education only pursuits without being spoiled by the evils of money.
Athletes have been given cushy jobs in the summer for a long time that pay quite well. Star trucking one example. I know a certain player that went to Kentucky and got paid 500 a week to turn the gym lights on as he told me all about it plus he and his girl friend got use of fancy big donors cottage most weekends. How many more benefits do they need. Normal college students work a lot harder for less money at their part time jobs.I love college sports but I think paying money to athletes would hurt the sport a lot more then help it.

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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by Redbird CC Fan » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:15 pm

JD wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:56 pm
Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:52 pm
real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 pm
Everything is a fallacy to you when someone disagrees. I guess you know everything and the colleges know nothing.End of discussion.
Rather than take your ball and going home, answer a simple question. Why is a normal college student like I mentioned above who gets a scholarship able to make as much money as they want on their own time while an athlete isn't just because they are an athlete?

The only argument you have made is "money is bad". Well why is money only bad if you are a college athlete? College athletics has been a huge, multi billion dollar industry forever. So if "money is bad", the only solution would be to end it entirely. Then colleges could go back to education only pursuits without being spoiled by the evils of money.
Is your last point coming down the road?
I hope college athletics don't end because I think college athletics are great as a whole. I think there are more fun rivalries and there are many more teams with a more personal connection than professional teams. I do think they need to make sure criminal actions are handled by law enforcement because colleges having their own police force is ridiculous for any reason. I also think they need to change to at a minimum eliminate the restrictions on athletes earning money. All the bad going on is going to force legislative or legal actions sooner rather than later, so I think being proactive and changing themselves would be much better.
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by Redbird CC Fan » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:22 pm

real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:11 pm
Athletes have been given cushy jobs in the summer for a long time that pay quite well. Star trucking one example. I know a certain player that went to Kentucky and got paid 500 a week to turn the gym lights on as he told me all about it plus he and his girl friend got use of fancy big donors cottage most weekends. How many more benefits do they need. Normal college students work a lot harder for less money at their part time jobs.I love college sports but I think paying money to athletes would hurt the sport a lot more then help it.
All these things you mentioned are against the current rules and many were likely illegal based on not declaring the income. Why not simply end the charade that it doesn't happen and make it all above board and within the rules? How many more benefits do they need? Who am I to place limit on them? If some booster wants to let a player drive a car as an endorsement, who am I to say that booster shouldn't be able to spend their money that way? It isn't my money and doesn't impact me.
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by quince » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:23 pm

real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:11 pm
Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:52 pm
real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 pm
Everything is a fallacy to you when someone disagrees. I guess you know everything and the colleges know nothing.End of discussion.
Rather than take your ball and going home, answer a simple question. Why is a normal college student like I mentioned above who gets a scholarship able to make as much money as they want on their own time while an athlete isn't just because they are an athlete?

Thee only argument you have made is "money is bad". Well why is money only bad if you are a college athlete? College athletics has been a huge, multi billion dollar industry forever. So if "money is bad", the only solution would be to end it entirely. Then colleges could go back to education only pursuits without being spoiled by the evils of money.
Athletes have been given cushy jobs in the summer for a long time that pay quite well. Star trucking one example. I know a certain player that went to Kentucky and got paid 500 a week to turn the gym lights on as he told me all about it plus he and his girl friend got use of fancy big donors cottage most weekends. How many more benefits do they need. Normal college students work a lot harder for less money at their part time jobs.I love college sports but I think paying money to athletes would hurt the sport a lot more then help it.
Didn't Bradley get in some trouble because of Star Transport and paying athletes for ^^ jobs?

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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by illini25 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:28 pm

real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:11 pm
Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:52 pm
real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:17 pm
Everything is a fallacy to you when someone disagrees. I guess you know everything and the colleges know nothing.End of discussion.
Rather than take your ball and going home, answer a simple question. Why is a normal college student like I mentioned above who gets a scholarship able to make as much money as they want on their own time while an athlete isn't just because they are an athlete?

Thee only argument you have made is "money is bad". Well why is money only bad if you are a college athlete? College athletics has been a huge, multi billion dollar industry forever. So if "money is bad", the only solution would be to end it entirely. Then colleges could go back to education only pursuits without being spoiled by the evils of money.
Athletes have been given cushy jobs in the summer for a long time that pay quite well. Star trucking one example. I know a certain player that went to Kentucky and got paid 500 a week to turn the gym lights on as he told me all about it plus he and his girl friend got use of fancy big donors cottage most weekends. How many more benefits do they need. Normal college students work a lot harder for less money at their part time jobs.I love college sports but I think paying money to athletes would hurt the sport a lot more then help it.
"Normal college students work a lot harder ..."

Nice generalization.

I know Tony Wy. He was one of the hardest working students I knew while at U of I.

My kid is a college student athlete with both academic and athletic scholarships. He is one of the most dedicated, hardest working people I've even been around. In 2 plus years he maintains a 4.0 with tough major and minor, always places first on team in pre-season conditioning tests and continues to improve his game.

He has scholarship teammates who also work their tails off and some who coast, just like non-athlete students.

You are sounding like someone who got snubbed by athletes when you were in school.
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by tribecalledquest » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:45 pm

No one can make a logical argument that college athletes shouldn’t/can’t make money on their own time. Whether that’s a job, commercials, jersey sales, shoe deals, etc.

No one can make a solid argument against allowing them to be like basically every other person in America to use their skills for pay.
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by dss03 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:16 pm

MLB has the chance to draft kids at 18, and funds 5 or 6 minor league teams. The NHL drafts kids at 18, and funds 2 minor league teams. There's some affiliate arrangements with the teams themselves, but they are expected to make their calls early on talent. They have to pay them earlier, and they and **** well better have some good scouts that need to cover the globe to stay successful.

I'm pretty sure the NBA and NFL could afford to have some real minor league franchises, instead of outsourcing this to the NCAA and pretending this is amateur. That would certainly be in the athletes best interests. It's just not in anyone else's. The rest of us have our reasons to keep pretending this pretty little lie.
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by BigB » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:16 pm

real fan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:11 pm
Athletes have been given cushy jobs in the summer for a long time that pay quite well. Star trucking one example.
The kids who worked Star Trucking summer jobs were U of I kids, Bradley kids and even numerous area high school kids. And they were routine summer jobs, not cushy, not crooked and most got minimum wage for reasonably hard work (cleanup, garbage detai). The only Star Trucking issue was inadvertently and unknown even to the company owner, a couple kids got overpaid due to a payroll employee's error. Believe what you want, but even the NCAA official finding says it was inadvertent and unintentional.

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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by deejay » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:28 pm

Bruce Pearl next? I think in the coming days a lot of coaches will lawyer up. Sad days ahead for college basketball.
go cubs go!

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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by illini25 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:10 am

http://tucson.com/sports/greghansen/han ... 651.html#1

At Arizona it's about protecting basketball and the $21MM revenue generated by hoops.
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by illini25 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:24 am

Here's a very good summary of specific charges.

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2 ... estigation
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by illini25 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:02 am

https://www.google.com/amp/www.chron.co ... 036502.php

John Feinstein spent the 1999-2000 season with the Patriot League and wrote about it in The Last Amateurs .

College basketball today is about colleges chasing millions -- no, billions -- of dollars; it's about a win-at-all-costs mentality that more often than not starts in the president's office and works down; alumni and fans who could [not] care less what a school's graduation rate is as long as they're winning championships; illegal payoffs that go way beyond what is reported because they are so hard to prove; academic fraud that only occasionally comes to light; and pampered players who expect everyone to kiss their butt 24 hours a day because that's the way their lives have been since the day their talent was discovered."

Here is an another excerpt from the book published in 2000 ...

"... it hit me that afternoon that the bad guys seem to have taken control of the big-time game. Everyone has to deal with the sneaker company sleazebags and the street agents and the AAU coaches and, the newest phenomenon, the guys dealing players under the guise of "financial advisor". I'm not just talking the so-called outlaw schools, I'm talking everyone and anyone who dreams of the Final Four, or for that matter, the Sweet Sixteen."
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by salz4life » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:16 pm

illini25 wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:02 am
https://www.google.com/amp/www.chron.co ... 036502.php

John Feinstein spent the 1999-2000 season with the Patriot League and wrote about it in The Last Amateurs .

College basketball today is about colleges chasing millions -- no, billions -- of dollars; it's about a win-at-all-costs mentality that more often than not starts in the president's office and works down; alumni and fans who could [not] care less what a school's graduation rate is as long as they're winning championships; illegal payoffs that go way beyond what is reported because they are so hard to prove; academic fraud that only occasionally comes to light; and pampered players who expect everyone to kiss their butt 24 hours a day because that's the way their lives have been since the day their talent was discovered."

Here is an another excerpt from the book published in 2000 ...

"... it hit me that afternoon that the bad guys seem to have taken control of the big-time game. Everyone has to deal with the sneaker company sleazebags and the street agents and the AAU coaches and, the newest phenomenon, the guys dealing players under the guise of "financial advisor". I'm not just talking the so-called outlaw schools, I'm talking everyone and anyone who dreams of the Final Four, or for that matter, the Sweet Sixteen."

GREAT book.
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Re: NCAA basketball coaches among 10 charged with fraud and corruption

Post by tribecalledquest » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:59 pm

I liked the book but Feinstein is off base there.

I get it. AAU coaches are easy targets. We need a villain in every story. AAU coaches are that. And you need the villain because we need the head coaches to be the bastions do goodness, virtue, and morals.

Bottom line. If the programs and head coaches didn’t sign off on this stuff it would go away.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

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