Pekins future?

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Pekins future?

Post by 1 yard short » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:39 pm

If Pekin happens to lose tonight what’s next? Do they search for a new coach? Does the program continue to lose players due to consistently having poor records year in and year out. I’m shocked they have such a horrible program. They could be the next Limestone if they don’t start worrying about winning seasons. That school has some amazing athletes. I see those kids play all summer vs my kids. Even the greatest athletes get out coached. I will be watching Metamora try to stay undefeated. #gobirds
Give them all a trophy for their effort. :lol:

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by CIS » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:48 pm

I wouldn't say its a horrible program, just a mediocre program that is consistently hovering around .500 but never seems to go anywhere. I don't see them losing to Canton, East Peoria or Limestone and will probably finish 4-5, just like I said before season started. But I could be wrong. I also do believe that the team could do better with the talent and size they have. I don't see the school doing anything drastic like firing the coach because like I said they are around .500 most years. But the program will never be a top tier program....

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by illini25 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:33 pm

It’s month 3 of a new AD’s tenure.
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Re: Pekins future?

Post by Reggie » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:09 am

illini25 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:33 pm
It’s month 3 of a new AD’s tenure.
So why aren’t things getting better? :lol:
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Re: Pekins future?

Post by Cristobal » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:34 am

CIS, you have a player by the name of Buck. He is a sophomore that was going to play varsity this year but decided to have surgery this year so he can play his last two years. He's an awesome player and probably will be Player of the Year his senior year. If he has the team to back him up, Pekin will have an awesome year.
Sooooooo close to our only perfect week with perfect dual tie-breaker point totals of all time. U sir are a freakin' genius!!! :smart ... :salute ... :notworthy

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by CIS » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:07 pm

Cristobal wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:34 am
CIS, you have a player by the name of Buck. He is a sophomore that was going to play varsity this year but decided to have surgery this year so he can play his last two years. He's an awesome player and probably will be Player of the Year his senior year. If he has the team to back him up, Pekin will have an awesome year.
Really doesn't matter Cristo, it's not players you need to surround him with, it's coaches! Pekin could have a young Peyton Manning and it would finish 5-5 or 4-5.... :D

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by CIS » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:08 pm

Reggie wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:09 am
illini25 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:33 pm
It’s month 3 of a new AD’s tenure.
So why aren’t things getting better? :lol:
Ah, give him a at least another month... :)

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by CIS » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:14 pm

YAWN. :snooze ...so Pekin beats up a 4A school (Canton) last night and now everyone in Pekinville is happy. :td When was the last time Pekin beat a good team? As long as East Peoria, Limestone programs remain bad, Pekin will go 3-4 in the MI or in years when Dunlap/Morton are not that good, they might go 4-3. So the program will hover around .500 but never beat anybody that is good. But this is enough to keep the current coaching staff around another ten years. Let's see, ten years so far, one playoff win and ZERO conference championships, in fact not even a sniff of one. As long as there is no scandals or complete breakdown with a string of 1-8 or 2-7 seasons, I believe the coaching staff will be at Pekin for at least another ten years. Who knows - maybe Pekin can get another playoff win the next ten years, that way this coaching staff could claim two playoff wins in 20 years!!!! :gagr

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by Aaron Ferguson » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:22 am

Reggie wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:09 am
illini25 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:33 pm
It’s month 3 of a new AD’s tenure.
So why aren’t things getting better? :lol:
I sat down with Barry Gurvey before the season started for a story I was working on with all new AD's, which obviously didn't get finished before, well, you know. I asked him about the subject of winning and whether they'd consider changing conferences or scheduling up.

He said that there is more to athletics than winning. He didn't seem like he'd make a coaching change based on wins and losses. Seems like he just wants to maintain stability.
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Re: Pekins future?

Post by CIS » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:48 pm

Aaron Ferguson wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:22 am
Reggie wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:09 am
illini25 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:33 pm
It’s month 3 of a new AD’s tenure.
So why aren’t things getting better? :lol:
I sat down with Barry Gurvey before the season started for a story I was working on with all new AD's, which obviously didn't get finished before, well, you know. I asked him about the subject of winning and whether they'd consider changing conferences or scheduling up.

He said that there is more to athletics than winning. He didn't seem like he'd make a coaching change based on wins and losses. Seems like he just wants to maintain stability.
That is the Pekin way and that is why Pekin is so mediocre - nobody cares about winning in the administration. And it seems that most Pekin folks have accepted that overall. And that is why they hired Doug Nutter in the beginning - it was as I recall the Pekin Times editor Haas saying - the safe pick after a tumultuous/disastrous one season with new coach George Kaider in 2008. There has been no winning in coach Nutters background (2-43 at River Valley) and two bad years as defensive coordinator at Pekin. There was nothing to indicate that this coach was anything special as opposed to when Pekin hired Joe Venturi in the 1960's and Dale Patton in the 1980's. Both of those coaches had produced winning programs at other high schools and had shown excellent ability before Pekin hired them. And both did well at Pekin. At Pekin you can go 10-15 years with a mediocre program that produces very little and yet keep your job (exhibit A - baseball program). But Aaron, why would you ask if Pekin would change conferences? What would be the point? Where would they go? Big 12? WB6? And why go further away? Pekin is very happy in the MI and with local ties Pekin draws decent crowds for many sports. And even though Pekin is a not a very good sports school they still usually finish 5th in the all sports trophy, which makes Pekin happy. The school is competitive in some sports and as long as you have Limestone, East Peoria and Canton, Pekin will have enough to finish ahead of those schools in many sports and keep their 5th place! Sure, most of us understand that Pekin with their enrollment should do better but they don't - but Pekin won't be any better in any other conference. Finally, I will say that Washington, Dunlap, Metamora and Morton are not exactly chop liver - those schools would do very well and be top tier sport programs in conferences like the BIG 12 or WB6. They are premier downstate sports programs across the board. So Pekin stays where they are - comfortable and happy just to be in the Mid Illini and keep local ties with travel just 15-30 minutes. And truthfully, I am sure most MI schools are happy to have a local school like Pekin. I will say it again, Pekin is a 7A school (soon to be 6A) that plays like a mediocre 5A school (or 2A/3A in other sports).

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by tincup1215 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:10 pm

Couple of my best friends from college are from Pekin and I'd always ask them how they didn't dominate in every sport being 2/3x larger than everyone in their conference. Summarizing their answer, they said a lot of the really good athletes don't go out for sports and that Pekin is just different (and not in a good way different). They never said anything negative about the town or school, just that it was hard to describe unless you live or go to school there. After visiting them a few times over the years and also scouting a basketball game there, I started to get the picture of what they were talking about.
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Re: Pekins future?

Post by CIS » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:23 pm

To be fair to Pekin, I think the whole 7A school should dominate the Mid Illini is somewhat overblown. Yes, I would love to see Pekin do better but there are many 7A schools that would NOT dominate the Mid Illini. I don't see schools like Alton, Moline, East Moline (probably 6A but 1660 students) Quincy, Collinsville, Granite City, Rockford Auburn, Machensey Park Harlem, Proviso East, Franklin Park Leyden, McHenry, Bradley-Bourbanais and many more schools I could list, dominating the Mid Illini in most sports. In fact there are Chicago suburban 8A schools that wouldn't dominate the Mid Illini. Some of these schools might dominate a sport or two but like I said, there are many 7A schools that would probably finish 4th-5th in the all sports trophy race many years in the Mid Illini. Size doesn't always matter like we think it should. There are outstanding schools that excel in sports and there are a lot of schools that are mediocre or bad at sports. As I said before, Washington-Morton-Dunlap-Metamora are outstanding sports schools that have won state titles/done well at state in several different sports. Those four schools could do well in many 7A conferences....

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by Aaron Ferguson » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:16 pm

CIS wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:48 pm
Aaron Ferguson wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:22 am
Reggie wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:09 am


So why aren’t things getting better? :lol:
I sat down with Barry Gurvey before the season started for a story I was working on with all new AD's, which obviously didn't get finished before, well, you know. I asked him about the subject of winning and whether they'd consider changing conferences or scheduling up.

He said that there is more to athletics than winning. He didn't seem like he'd make a coaching change based on wins and losses. Seems like he just wants to maintain stability.
But Aaron, why would you ask if Pekin would change conferences? What would be the point? Where would they go? Big 12? WB6? And why go further away?
The only reason I brought it up was because of the districts proposal, which is a story I was really looking forward to writing during football season. The only conference that would have made since would be the Big 12. I never asked that with an actual belief that Pekin would leave the Mid-Illini, since that worked out so well for IVC.
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Re: Pekins future?

Post by CIS » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:37 pm

Districts would only affect football, so conferences are intact for other sports. It is interesting Aaron, with falling enrollment at Pekin the school will probably be a 6A school in maybe 3-4 years while Washington, with growing enrollment (400+ freshman this year) will probably be 6A in year or two. Dunlap might also end up 6A. So the MI might have three (6A) schools in a few years. I truly hope that Pekin does drop into 6A if district comes into play because 7A district would be brutal for Pekin football with far flung games to Alton, Moline and possibly Bradley-Bourbanais. There would be NO local games at least for district play. Canton is actually one school that would benefit leaving the Mid Illini since the Giants with enrollments in the 700's are really struggling in the league, finishing dead last most years in the all sports trophy. When Canton plays against similar enrollment schools it does very well. The only problem is where would they go? What 4A type conferences are in western Illinois? And there are historic ties to the MI. Anyway, do you think districts are going to come into play the next few years?

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by young guns » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:52 pm

Hang on CIS, help is on thy way!
I have 4 grandsons, brothers, who will turn things around for you! But it will be a few years before they are in high school. :xclaphands :)

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by CIS » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:29 pm

young guns wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:52 pm
Hang on CIS, help is on thy way!
I have 4 grandsons, brothers, who will turn things around for you! But it will be a few years before they are in high school. :xclaphands :)
Hopefully there will be a new coaching staff in place :D

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by Pike Bishop » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:00 pm

The way you guys talk, things must be bad in Pekin. If they are giving up big plays and playing poor there is a lot of issues - defensive scheme (coaches), matching your talent to scheme (coaches), defensive calls (coaches), execution (players), tackling players, Tom Innis, a coach at Pekin, said tackling was 90% desire, 10% technique), pursuit, desire (players). teaching technique (coaches), execution of technique (players). Size (genetics - Pekin has always had size), speed (genetics - something Pekin has always lacked and something you need vs. today's offenses). How are practices set up? Coaching during practice? Players attitude, execution, hustle, during practice? Is the talent really there? Talent walking the halls? There is a reason they are walking the halls - they have no discipline and or desire and can not accept discipline.
High schools are not like colleges - the whole staff can't be fired and then you go out and hire a new on. Usually you can hire and get a teaching position for a head coach but not a complete new staff. Hiring JFL coaches or people form the community - it depends on their experience and ability. This route is usually hit or miss. Are they better than the assistants you just let go? You can be a knowledgeable and experienced head coach but I never meet one who could walk on water. You can't do it by yourself. One needs a good staff. At the high school level firing a football staff is easier said the done.

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by Bballnut » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:02 pm

Pike Bishop wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:00 pm

High schools are not like colleges - the whole staff can't be fired and then you go out and hire a new on. Usually you can hire and get a teaching position for a head coach but not a complete new staff. Hiring JFL coaches or people form the community - it depends on their experience and ability. This route is usually hit or miss. Are they better than the assistants you just let go? You can be a knowledgeable and experienced head coach but I never meet one who could walk on water. You can't do it by yourself. One needs a good staff. At the high school level firing a football staff is easier said the done.
I tried to post something awhile back, didn't like it, and hit the delete button. What I was gonna say, but couldn't say as well as described by Pike, is that AD's often have their hands tied. One of the previous quotes was that the AD of Pekin said it was" more than wins and losses" or something similar. Like Pike said, there has to be teaching positions open. Not always, and most likely in this case, not available. There are taxpayers dollars involved that the AD MUST consider. And I have to believe the AD wants to win just as much as the next guy. Just saying...
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Re: Pekins future?

Post by CIS » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:35 pm

I get all that and understand that you can't let go of an entire coaching staff. But Pekin keeps a lot of head coaches for a long time that have losing records, never win a conference championship and doesn't win in postseason. I don't know if a lot of schools that care about winning would keep such coaches for a long time. But since all I really care about is football, I still wonder why Pekin hired the current coach ten years ago when there was no history of winning or building a successful program. Why didn't Pekin go out and hire another Dale Patton who was successful at a smaller school and had built a quality program? I am sure there are guys out there at a smaller school that would like to go to a larger school and try their luck. The school, after ten years, is stuck with this current coaching regime probably for another five- ten years since the school doesn't like to change things and keep things steady....kind of like the program is held hostage. Oh well, time to let this go for another year. Maybe even if Pekin got a great coach the program wouldn't do much. Maybe its just the community and student body itself....

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by Bballnut » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:35 am

CIS wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:35 pm
I get all that and understand that you can't let go of an entire coaching staff. But Pekin keeps a lot of head coaches for a long time that have losing records, never win a conference championship and doesn't win in postseason. I don't know if a lot of schools that care about winning would keep such coaches for a long time. But since all I really care about is football, I still wonder why Pekin hired the current coach ten years ago when there was no history of winning or building a successful program. Why didn't Pekin go out and hire another Dale Patton who was successful at a smaller school and had built a quality program? I am sure there are guys out there at a smaller school that would like to go to a larger school and try their luck. The school, after ten years, is stuck with this current coaching regime probably for another five- ten years since the school doesn't like to change things and keep things steady....kind of like the program is held hostage. Oh well, time to let this go for another year. Maybe even if Pekin got a great coach the program wouldn't do much. Maybe its just the community and student body itself....



You suppose a " Dale Patton type" didn't apply or perhaps didn't teach the open position(s)? I get where you're coming from but it's just not as easy as going out and finding the dream coach willing to move to a 7A school in a geographica area where 7A schools are uncommon. Just my 2 cents
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Re: Pekins future?

Post by CIS » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:50 pm

I don't recall the school really opening the position or an outside coach being explored. The decision was made rather quickly - as Jim Haas of the Pekin Times said at the time it was a safe pick done quickly because the school had just had a disaster of a hire in Coach Kraider. So the school went a quick route and stayed with Nutter who had been with the school for two years. The hire of coach Kraider (year before Nutter) was a head scratcher and questionable as the school/community found out. But anyway, I am done posting on this for the year(It's funny I didn't even start this thread). My points are clear and so are others agree or not. I understand that those who are in the coaching/teaching ranks dislike when coaches/programs are criticized. I get its not easy being a coach in this day and age. But a varsity coach is a big boy, paid also for doing the job. This is not volunteers at JFL level. So they can be open to being scrutinized. No matter where you are in life, if you are in leadership you will deal with criticism. If you are a leader at a company and do not have performance results, many times you are let go. That is the real world. And I personally think it can apply to varsity high school coaches. This also affects the bottom line. At a place like Pekin, if you lose a thousand people per home game because of lack of interest/excitement, that equates to perhaps $20-25,000 over a season in lost revenue for the athletic department. After ten years, you kind of get a sense of where the program is. After ten years, I think its fair to question things. After ten years of lack of results, I think its fair to maybe want a different direction. But at this point, there is no need to keep beating a dead horse. Year after year the same thing, nothing is going to change. I have given my opinion on these boards, which are designed for opinions. Right or wrong these are my opinions on this subject and I stand by them. I am not saying I am right. My opinions are certainly open for discourse and points can certainly be made against my opinions. I do not hold any personal ill will against Coach Nutter who seems like a fine person. My opinions has to do strictly with coaching and program direction - right or wrong! Have a nice day all! :td

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by Bobby Thigpen » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:50 am

CIS wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:50 pm
Why didn't Pekin go out and hire another Dale Patton who was successful at a smaller school and had built a quality program?


I get its not easy being a coach in this day and age. But a varsity coach is a big boy, paid also for doing the job. This is not volunteers at JFL level. So they can be open to being scrutinized. No matter where you are in life, if you are in leadership you will deal with criticism. If you are a leader at a company and do not have performance results, many times you are let go. That is the real world. And I personally think it can apply to varsity high school coaches. This also affects the bottom line. At a place like Pekin, if you lose a thousand people per home game because of lack of interest/excitement, that equates to perhaps $20-25,000 over a season in lost revenue for the athletic department.
Couple points-
1. Dale Patton didn't build St T. They had won 3 state championships before he got there for his enormous 2 years.

2. You make between 5-8/9 thousand dollars to be a head football coach in Central Illinois. In smaller schools, it could be closer to 3k. Can we stop acting like this is some high paying job? I worked out the math one year and it came to about $1.50 an hour.

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by CIS » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:23 pm

Where did I say it was high paying job? Try actually reading what I was saying. My point is that since this IS a paid job and not a volunteer job then there can be a little more scrutiny of position than say a volunteer JFL coach or something like that. Oh by the way, you seem to disparage Dale Patton by saying his "enormous two years". Uh, gee, I would say a second place state trophy and 17-7 record is pretty good! (the previous four years before Patton, St. Theresa was only 19-17 with NO playoffs and it would take THIRTY years after Patton left for St. Theresa to make it back to state title game). So what was your point? My only point about Dale Patton is that he had some success as a head coach before assuming Pekin job, thus I was making a larger point that Pekin should try to find someone that HAS been successful as a head coach. BTW Mr. Thigpen, Patton was head and shoulders above the current Pekin coach in coaching ability. It is interesting that some act like a varsity head coach is beyond criticism, that somehow its wrong to actually ask what is going on with a program. Is it wrong after ten years to expect some success? Maybe one conference championship, maybe a winning record that is least a few games over .500? Is it wrong to expect better performance than to constantly hear "can't figure out Pekin, they never seem to be able to put the pieces together". Geez, while Pekin may not be a good sports school, many programs ranging from cross country, volleyball to even the baseball program has won at least ONE Mid Illini championship in the last ten years. But Pekin has only contended ONCE for a football championship in ten years and missed. Let that sink in - ONE time in ten years actually being in the championship hunt. It's not like Pekin hasn't had talent. The PJS and others constantly place Pekin in the preseason as conference challengers/darkhorses but most of the time Pekin constantly under performs. Of course there are some schools locally that would NOT keep a coach of ten years with losing record and one playoff win - they have different expectations. But to some it seems that a coach is given a lifetime free hand, records don't matter, success doesn't matter - coach as long as you want.....

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by Pike Bishop » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:05 pm

Most coaches that I know, accept going in to a coaching position that the time you will put in will way below hourly minimum wage. That goes with the profession. Yes, there are clock watchers, but the good ones will not cheat the players. Dale Patton when he accepted the Pekin position, had a stellar reputation, was a young, innovative, up and coming coach. He was one of the first coaches who got in gun, one back and threw the ball over the place. His record at Pekin speaks for itself. The AD that hired him, was very much impressed by him.
Hiring a good head coach is not always a sure thing. Some schools have a reputation as career killers. Some schools (Washington, Metamora, Rochester, Dunlap) are goldmines. Some candidates are great interviewers but *** as coaches. Some schools, for one reason or another (basketball school, poor football tradition), do not attract quality candidates, or ones with winning records. When the Springfield High School job opened up, the final three candidates candidates record the previous season was 3-27. The man who got the job, took his lumps but has turned the corner when he beat SHG for the first time in 19 years. Lanphier ended up having three different searches when the first two candidates changed their mind shortly after
accepting the job. Is Pekin a attractive football job? Do they have athletes? Is it one of those athletes walking the halls schools? I can not answer that

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Re: Pekins future?

Post by Bobby Thigpen » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:21 pm

CIS wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:23 pm
Where did I say it was high paying job? Try actually reading what I was saying. My point is that since this IS a paid job and not a volunteer job then there can be a little more scrutiny of position than say a volunteer JFL coach or something like that. Oh by the way, you seem to disparage Dale Patton by saying his "enormous two years". Uh, gee, I would say a second place state trophy and 17-7 record is pretty good! (the previous four years before Patton, St. Theresa was only 19-17 with NO playoffs and it would take THIRTY years after Patton left for St. Theresa to make it back to state title game). So what was your point? My only point about Dale Patton is that he had some success as a head coach before assuming Pekin job, thus I was making a larger point that Pekin should try to find someone that HAS been successful as a head coach. BTW Mr. Thigpen, Patton was head and shoulders above the current Pekin coach in coaching ability. It is interesting that some act like a varsity head coach is beyond criticism, that somehow its wrong to actually ask what is going on with a program. Is it wrong after ten years to expect some success? Maybe one conference championship, maybe a winning record that is least a few games over .500? Is it wrong to expect better performance than to constantly hear "can't figure out Pekin, they never seem to be able to put the pieces together". Geez, while Pekin may not be a good sports school, many programs ranging from cross country, volleyball to even the baseball program has won at least ONE Mid Illini championship in the last ten years. But Pekin has only contended ONCE for a football championship in ten years and missed. Let that sink in - ONE time in ten years actually being in the championship hunt. It's not like Pekin hasn't had talent. The PJS and others constantly place Pekin in the preseason as conference challengers/darkhorses but most of the time Pekin constantly under performs. Of course there are some schools locally that would NOT keep a coach of ten years with losing record and one playoff win - they have different expectations. But to some it seems that a coach is given a lifetime free hand, records don't matter, success doesn't matter - coach as long as you want.....
1. I thought you were done posting about this.
2. You need a hobby man.

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