No more dual meets in XC?

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No more dual meets in XC?

Post by Redbird CC Fan » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:28 pm

Mid Illini eliminated dual meets. Now have a pre conference meet followed later in the season by the conference meet. Is this a trend for other conferences? I can see where it makes it cheaper and helps schools with fewer runners, but I don't know that I like it as the dual meets are a good way to let the 6-10 runners battle head to head.
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Re: No more dual meets in XC?

Post by oftenrunning52 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:50 am

Western Big 6 went to it a few years ago as have some suburban conferences. Given the technology at meets now, everyone gets to run on Saturday. Runners 6-10 can battle it out on Saturday when the races are bigger and the competition deeper and the pressure greater. I advocated for the conference to drop them for these reasons in addition to less travel and time "racing" duals instead of training. Racing once a week should get everyone ready to be their best at the end of the season.
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Re: No more dual meets in XC?

Post by CIS » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:24 pm

Western Big Six I can understand with Galesburg and Quincy being quite a distance for a midweek meet. I know when I lived in Pennsylvania 25 years ago that the schools only had the big conference meet with no duel conference - of course schools could still schedule conference schools for a duel meet that didn't count for anything conference wise. Quick question - will Mid Illini schools still schedule a few conference schools for duel meets during the season? At Dunlap or Metamora, how many duel meets have they scheduled this year?

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Re: No more dual meets in XC?

Post by oftenrunning52 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:24 pm

CIS wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:24 pm
Western Big Six I can understand with Galesburg and Quincy being quite a distance for a midweek meet. I know when I lived in Pennsylvania 25 years ago that the schools only had the big conference meet with no duel conference - of course schools could still schedule conference schools for a duel meet that didn't count for anything conference wise. Quick question - will Mid Illini schools still schedule a few conference schools for duel meets during the season? At Dunlap or Metamora, how many duel meets have they scheduled this year?
I can tell you for Dunlap we have one dual meet on the schedule and it is with Notre Dame. Given the number of times we run against the other teams in our conference on Saturdays, I don't know how much is gained through racing them on a Tuesday night.
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Re: No more dual meets in XC?

Post by CIS » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:33 pm

Is there any downsides from doing away with conference duel meets and not running on Tuesday? I checked the Pekin schedule and the only duel meet was against Normal west last week...

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Re: No more dual meets in XC?

Post by MidstateFan » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:26 pm

I think dual meets are pretty much a thing of the past in both cross country and track. With the big invites each weekend giving all runners a chance to compete and new timing systems making it easy to get times on all runners, duals just sort of disrupt the training routine for XC.

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Re: No more dual meets in XC?

Post by oftenrunning52 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:37 am

MidstateFan wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:26 pm
I think dual meets are pretty much a thing of the past in both cross country and track. With the big invites each weekend giving all runners a chance to compete and new timing systems making it easy to get times on all runners, duals just sort of disrupt the training routine for XC.
I agree with everything you say except when you mention track in the first sentence. Dual meets, with the ability to enter unlimited kids in events, still serve a valuable purpose. Big track invites usually limit you to two entries per event, maybe three if you're lucky. This makes it difficult to develop other athletes for those events unless you have opportunities to race them. As I advocated for the elimination of dual meets in the conference, I would never advocate for their elimination in track.
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Re: No more dual meets in XC?

Post by Redbird CC Fan » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:55 am

The only caveat to me is that XC varsity races at invites normally limit to 7 runners. There are open races, but they can be massive, are at the end of the invite, and as such aren't necessarily an apples to apples comparison of times to compare 6-10 runners. However, many schools were not running their top runners in duals anyway so that and the extra cost, I get it. One other negative is not getting to run the home courses of some conference schools at all. That is neat for the kids and with home / away was a challenge in 4 years with duals that will now become impossible unless conference rotates from Detweiller.
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Re: No more dual meets in XC?

Post by CIS » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:30 pm

Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:55 am
The only caveat to me is that XC varsity races at invites normally limit to 7 runners. There are open races, but they can be massive, are at the end of the invite, and as such aren't necessarily an apples to apples comparison of times to compare 6-10 runners. However, many schools were not running their top runners in duals anyway so that and the extra cost, I get it. One other negative is not getting to run the home courses of some conference schools at all. That is neat for the kids and with home / away was a challenge in 4 years with duals that will now become impossible unless conference rotates from Detweiller.
That's a good point about home meets. And I don't see where there would be that much extra cost in having a few extra duel meets during the season. And Often running makes a great point about the difference between track and CC duel meets - more kids get to participate in track duel meets which has many more events and that's important to encourage and build track participation. Quick question - is there a limit of the amount of kids that can run in a duel meet? And if the top runners don't run in a duel meet, wouldn't that give opportunities for other kids to run in a meaningful race and possibly place? Or do I have this wrong? I guess my point is that if weekend invites limit the number of runners but duels allow more runners, wouldn't you want a few duels to allow more kids to run and keep their interest and also reward their hard work? But I do see both ways and it seems that many schools have gone to mostly weekend invites and few or no duels...

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Re: No more dual meets in XC?

Post by Redbird CC Fan » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:52 pm

Duals are unlimited single boys and girls races in XC. Track duals are unlimited entry as well per event although each athlete is max of 4 events as I recall.
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Re: No more dual meets in XC?

Post by oftenrunning52 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:05 pm

Redbird CC Fan wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:55 am
The only caveat to me is that XC varsity races at invites normally limit to 7 runners. There are open races, but they can be massive, are at the end of the invite, and as such aren't necessarily an apples to apples comparison of times to compare 6-10 runners. However, many schools were not running their top runners in duals anyway so that and the extra cost, I get it. One other negative is not getting to run the home courses of some conference schools at all. That is neat for the kids and with home / away was a challenge in 4 years with duals that will now become impossible unless conference rotates from Detweiller.
Of the invites that our team runs in a season, only one (the one we host ironically) limits the varsity race to only 7. This weekend, First to the Finish allows ten. Galesburg Invite, East Peoria, Runnin' Red, and conference all allow unlimited numbers in the varsity race. With technology, cross country is past the days of needing to run dual meets except for specific purposes which are typically coaching decisions. Some coaches may choose to run several, but many coaches will only run one or two.
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2011 and 2012 Mid-Illini Boys Cross Country Champions
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017 Mid-Illini Girls Cross Country Champions
2014 3rd place and 2016 2nd place Girls 2A IHSA Cross Country
2017 Girls IHSA Cross Country State Champions

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Re: No more dual meets in XC?

Post by tincup1215 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:27 am

Agree with mostly what's been said. Dual meets for XC are outdated and should not be made mandatory by a conference, but schools should have the option of having them if they choose too. Every athlete gets to compete on Saturday's though whether it's Varsity, Fr/So, or Open.

For Track, the dual meets are good because you can get your whole team in. Like was stated before, most Saturday meets are top 2 entry.

There are actually some conferences who make it mandatory to have Track Dual meets and there is a points system with that affects who is conference champ. Theoretically, you could win your big conference track meet, but lose on total team points if you lost all your dual meets. I hate that formula and it was made by dinosaurs.

No one runs a dual meet to win. We don't even keep score in them anymore because most schools aren't running their good kids in their actual events. You'll see stud distance kids running a 400/800 combo at dual meets in preparation for a 1600 or 3200 on a Saturday
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