vs SIU

BradleyHoops.com: For the civil discussion of Bradley University men's basketball
JMM28
All World
All World
Posts: 3359
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:55 am

Re: vs SIU

Post by JMM28 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:19 am

https://hoop-math.com

That site has some interesting numbers on efg% by possession type/time of possession for the statistically inclined.

User avatar
SaintLouBrave22
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 17672
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:37 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: vs SIU

Post by SaintLouBrave22 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:50 am

tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:44 am
This is nice and all, but it takes everything into account as a whole without regard for individual players and situations...


What if you have a guy who is an 82% FT shooter, but only 28% from 3...

Do you really want him taking shots from distance if he can get open FT line jumpers just because a 3 is "valued" more?

Winning players with solid basketball IQs win games...many of these winning players have differing styles of play, which lends to each of those categories.
---If you need it, you don't have it. If you have it you don't need it. But if you need and you don't have it, you want it. If you don't have any of it, then you really don't know how to get more to get started then do you?---

real fan
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 5439
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:23 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by real fan » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:01 am

SaintLouBrave22 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:50 am
tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:44 am
This is nice and all, but it takes everything into account as a whole without regard for individual players and situations...


What if you have a guy who is an 82% FT shooter, but only 28% from 3...

Do you really want him taking shots from distance if he can get open FT line jumpers just because a 3 is "valued" more?

Winning players with solid basketball IQs win games...many of these winning players have differing styles of play, which lends to each of those categories.
No kidding, players that are great free throw shooters should be looking at taking more of their shots from around the free throw line because it is a shot that is not defended well for the most part.

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 19568
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by tribecalledquest » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:05 am

It doesn't need to be said of course, but being a good free throw shooter doesn't mean you are a good in-game, jump shooter from 15-feet. Donte Thomas is shooting 95% from the free throw line in the league but I don't want him shooting or seeking out 15-foot jumpers in the offense. Koch Bar--75% from the line. Nope, don't want him shooting elbow jumpers either.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

real fan
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 5439
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:23 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by real fan » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:12 am

tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:05 am
It doesn't need to be said of course, but being a good free throw shooter doesn't mean you are a good in-game, jump shooter from 15-feet. Donte Thomas is shooting 95% from the free throw line in the league but I don't want him shooting or seeking out 15-foot jumpers in the offense. Koch Bar--75% from the line. Nope, don't want him shooting elbow jumpers either.
Thomas taking that 15 ft. shot is better then taking a 3 pointer. Bar is also a better shooter when facing the basket instead of with his back to the basket. By the way since you are close to Chicago will you be going to the game?

User avatar
SaintLouBrave22
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 17672
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:37 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: vs SIU

Post by SaintLouBrave22 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:17 am

tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:05 am
It doesn't need to be said of course, but being a good free throw shooter doesn't mean you are a good in-game, jump shooter from 15-feet. Donte Thomas is shooting 95% from the free throw line in the league but I don't want him shooting or seeking out 15-foot jumpers in the offense. Koch Bar--75% from the line. Nope, don't want him shooting elbow jumpers either.
Sure, but I don't think anyone here has suggested seeking out anything...


To your example: If I have the choice between Donte taking an uncontested 15 footer versus an uncontested 23 footer, I am going to choose the 15 footer and live with that every single time...

When you go to the Guards, the mindset there changes, BUT Nate was used as a good example before. If he's closely guarded at the 3-pt line, I'd much rather he head fake and get an open jumper inside the arc than fire up a heavily contested 3. (And I'm sure you'd at least agree there)


And I tried to let this slide, but I just can't...I don't want Koch Bar shooting jumpers period.
---If you need it, you don't have it. If you have it you don't need it. But if you need and you don't have it, you want it. If you don't have any of it, then you really don't know how to get more to get started then do you?---

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 19568
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by tribecalledquest » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:24 am

SaintLouBrave22 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:17 am
tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:05 am
It doesn't need to be said of course, but being a good free throw shooter doesn't mean you are a good in-game, jump shooter from 15-feet. Donte Thomas is shooting 95% from the free throw line in the league but I don't want him shooting or seeking out 15-foot jumpers in the offense. Koch Bar--75% from the line. Nope, don't want him shooting elbow jumpers either.
Sure, but I don't think anyone here has suggested seeking out anything...


To your example: If I have the choice between Donte taking an uncontested 15 footer versus an uncontested 23 footer, I am going to choose the 15 footer and live with that every single time...

When you go to the Guards, the mindset there changes, BUT Nate was used as a good example before. If he's closely guarded at the 3-pt line, I'd much rather he head fake and get an open jumper inside the arc than fire up a heavily contested 3. (And I'm sure you'd at least agree there)


And I tried to let this slide, but I just can't...I don't want Koch Bar shooting jumpers period.
Of course I want Donte shooting a 15 footer before a three pointer. He really shouldn't be shooting either. That's the point. If you aren't a good three point shooter you aren't going to be a good 15 foot jump shooter.

And I already agreed on the Nate example. That wasn't a case of him choosing an 18 footer over a three...it was a case of him taking an open shot versus a guarded shot. I don't want a guy passing up an open three two take a dribble to get two feet closer and its now a two pointer. That's bad basketball.

In general 15 to 18 foot shots aren't good shots in today's game. Again, you don't necessarily turn it down but it's way down the list of shots guys should seek out and take. That's been the point.

I hear people say "the midrange game is a lost art". That's not true. It's going away because it should be going away. It's an inefficent shot. It's like bunting in baseball.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 19568
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by tribecalledquest » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:27 am

real fan wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:12 am
tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:05 am
It doesn't need to be said of course, but being a good free throw shooter doesn't mean you are a good in-game, jump shooter from 15-feet. Donte Thomas is shooting 95% from the free throw line in the league but I don't want him shooting or seeking out 15-foot jumpers in the offense. Koch Bar--75% from the line. Nope, don't want him shooting elbow jumpers either.
Thomas taking that 15 ft. shot is better then taking a 3 pointer. Bar is also a better shooter when facing the basket instead of with his back to the basket. By the way since you are close to Chicago will you be going to the game?
Won't be there Saturday. The significant other in my life made plans for me that day. Some stupid dinner with stupid friends scheduled a long time ago. Women...can't live with them....................................
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
SaintLouBrave22
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 17672
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:37 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: vs SIU

Post by SaintLouBrave22 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:42 am

tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:24 am


I hear people say "the midrange game is a lost art". That's not true. It's going away because it should be going away. It's an inefficent shot. It's like bunting in baseball.
I believe I say this all the time....but its usually after one of our guards passes up a mid range jumper only to barrel down the lane and run a guy over for a charge....This goes WAY back. At least to the Maniscalco era (who seemed to be as bad as DLO at this)


From someone who played baseball at a very high level, I just can't agree with you on that one, but thats a different conversation for a different board that also factors in strikeouts, double plays, and completely unproductive outs.


A better comparison would be running hi-lo with Childs and Bar or Donte shooting 5 3's a game :shock:
---If you need it, you don't have it. If you have it you don't need it. But if you need and you don't have it, you want it. If you don't have any of it, then you really don't know how to get more to get started then do you?---

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 19568
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by tribecalledquest » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:10 pm

SaintLouBrave22 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:42 am
tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:24 am


I hear people say "the midrange game is a lost art". That's not true. It's going away because it should be going away. It's an inefficent shot. It's like bunting in baseball.
I believe I say this all the time....but its usually after one of our guards passes up a mid range jumper only to barrel down the lane and run a guy over for a charge....This goes WAY back. At least to the Maniscalco era (who seemed to be as bad as DLO at this)


From someone who played baseball at a very high level, I just can't agree with you on that one, but thats a different conversation for a different board that also factors in strikeouts, double plays, and completely unproductive outs.


A better comparison would be running hi-lo with Childs and Bar or Donte shooting 5 3's a game :shock:
The data is out there on mid range jumpers and bunts. For the most part mid range jumpers aren't smart and neither is bunting (at least at the pro level. I have no idea about college baseball and the data).
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

JMM28
All World
All World
Posts: 3359
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:55 am

Re: vs SIU

Post by JMM28 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:13 pm

Smoking in a restaurant is a lost art.

Cars without seat belts are a lost art.

User avatar
dss03
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 4732
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:51 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by dss03 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:44 pm

Analogies to baseball fall a bit short because of the influence opposing defenses dictate in basketball. Maybe how baseball has shifted due to individual hitters spray charts is the best fit to basketball. I think defending a dead pull hitter in baseball is similar to defending teams that don’t have any players with mid range game.

At an individual skill level, I guess I am still old school. It is a lost art. There is immense value in a player having above average ability to get points in these spots. Tactically, you aren’t building any offense structure to get points here, but you need points here nonetheless.

Defenses get a vote too, though. Great teams seem to get a lot more votes. You well might win a Thurs night Arch Madness game popping 3’s, getting to the rim, and drawing fouls. Friday, you’ll suddenly find yourself needing points from tough spots, or have difficulty cracking 60, or even 50. So when it comes to getting to that NCAA level, you need to have some ability to get points there along with the discipline to know when you don’t need to.

Bradley desperately needs a player that can get points in these areas next season, and they don’t just fall off trees, so in that sense I do buy into the lost art point of view.
FunchessonPopcorn - "DSS03 is fantastic!"

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 19568
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by tribecalledquest » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:48 pm

dss03 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:44 pm
Analogies to baseball fall a bit short because of the influence opposing defenses dictate in basketball. Maybe how baseball has shifted due to individual hitters spray charts is the best fit to basketball. I think defending a dead pull hitter in baseball is similar to defending teams that don’t have any players with mid range game.

At an individual skill level, I guess I am still old school. It is a lost art. There is immense value in a player having above average ability to get points in these spots. Tactically, you aren’t building any offense structure to get points here, but you need points here nonetheless.

Defenses get a vote too, though. Great teams seem to get a lot more votes. You well might win a Thurs night Arch Madness game popping 3’s, getting to the rim, and drawing fouls. Friday, you’ll suddenly find yourself needing points from tough spots, or have difficulty cracking 60, or even 50. So when it comes to getting to that NCAA level, you need to have some ability to get points there along with the discipline to know when you don’t need to.

Bradley desperately needs a player that can get points in these areas next season, and they don’t just fall off trees, so in that sense I do buy into the lost art point of view.
Per usual I agree with this.

I do think it is a good skill to have. It really helps Darrell Brown at times. All I’ve said is that on the list of shots a team should TRY to get it, it is way down the list. Maybe a lot of that has to do with the fact guys can’t make it as often as they should. Being able to score from everywhere is very important.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
dss03
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 4732
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:51 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by dss03 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:10 pm

tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:48 pm
dss03 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:44 pm
Analogies to baseball fall a bit short because of the influence opposing defenses dictate in basketball. Maybe how baseball has shifted due to individual hitters spray charts is the best fit to basketball. I think defending a dead pull hitter in baseball is similar to defending teams that don’t have any players with mid range game.

At an individual skill level, I guess I am still old school. It is a lost art. There is immense value in a player having above average ability to get points in these spots. Tactically, you aren’t building any offense structure to get points here, but you need points here nonetheless.

Defenses get a vote too, though. Great teams seem to get a lot more votes. You well might win a Thurs night Arch Madness game popping 3’s, getting to the rim, and drawing fouls. Friday, you’ll suddenly find yourself needing points from tough spots, or have difficulty cracking 60, or even 50. So when it comes to getting to that NCAA level, you need to have some ability to get points there along with the discipline to know when you don’t need to.

Bradley desperately needs a player that can get points in these areas next season, and they don’t just fall off trees, so in that sense I do buy into the lost art point of view.
Per usual I agree with this.

I do think it is a good skill to have. It really helps Darrell Brown at times. All I’ve said is that on the list of shots a team should TRY to get it, it is way down the list. Maybe a lot of that has to do with the fact guys can’t make it as often as they should. Being able to score from everywhere is very important.
The tension between wanting to have the skill, but hoping to have to use it sparingly makes recruiting interesting, I think. A high school kid shouldn’t need it a lot vs high school competition. If he does, it’s a solid indicator that he’s probably not athletic enough and needs to be at lower levels. But then how do you know it is there for you when they play vs men if they don’t need it vs kids?

I personally think this is up there on the reasons why smaller schools can do just fine, and why under-recruited stars come up outside the power 5 so frequently.
FunchessonPopcorn - "DSS03 is fantastic!"

User avatar
dss03
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 4732
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:51 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by dss03 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:28 pm

Anthony Parker was good at many things, but IMO one thing that really put him over the top was how he could take one or two dribbles, lift up in a controlled manner, and knock down jumpers on top of people. Obviously an extreme example, but once a player does that to you a couple times, usually on really well defended possessions....what the heck are you supposed to do next to counter that?
FunchessonPopcorn - "DSS03 is fantastic!"

User avatar
squirrel
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 29042
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:45 pm
Location: Peoria, IL

Re: vs SIU

Post by squirrel » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:29 pm

dss03 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:28 pm
Anthony Parker was good at many things, but IMO one thing that really put him over the top was how he could take one or two dribbles, lift up in a controlled manner, and knock down jumpers on top of people. Obviously an extreme example, but once a player does that to you a couple times, usually on really well defended possessions....what the heck are you supposed to do next to counter that?
Trip them.
"[. . .] and it would be foolish to gobble up sliders when there’s a steak hidden in the fridge." -Kirk Wessler

User avatar
SaintLouBrave22
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 17672
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:37 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: vs SIU

Post by SaintLouBrave22 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:31 pm

squirrel wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:29 pm
dss03 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:28 pm
Anthony Parker was good at many things, but IMO one thing that really put him over the top was how he could take one or two dribbles, lift up in a controlled manner, and knock down jumpers on top of people. Obviously an extreme example, but once a player does that to you a couple times, usually on really well defended possessions....what the heck are you supposed to do next to counter that?
Trip them.
Ok there Grayson Allen :lol:
---If you need it, you don't have it. If you have it you don't need it. But if you need and you don't have it, you want it. If you don't have any of it, then you really don't know how to get more to get started then do you?---

real fan
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 5439
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:23 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by real fan » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:08 pm

tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:27 am
real fan wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:12 am
tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:05 am
It doesn't need to be said of course, but being a good free throw shooter doesn't mean you are a good in-game, jump shooter from 15-feet. Donte Thomas is shooting 95% from the free throw line in the league but I don't want him shooting or seeking out 15-foot jumpers in the offense. Koch Bar--75% from the line. Nope, don't want him shooting elbow jumpers either.
Thomas taking that 15 ft. shot is better then taking a 3 pointer. Bar is also a better shooter when facing the basket instead of with his back to the basket. By the way since you are close to Chicago will you be going to the game?
Won't be there Saturday. The significant other in my life made plans for me that day. Some stupid dinner with stupid friends scheduled a long time ago. Women...can't live with them....................................
We now know who the boss is and why you have no ( or stupid ) friends :)

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 19568
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by tribecalledquest » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:30 pm

real fan wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:08 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:27 am
real fan wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:12 am

Thomas taking that 15 ft. shot is better then taking a 3 pointer. Bar is also a better shooter when facing the basket instead of with his back to the basket. By the way since you are close to Chicago will you be going to the game?
Won't be there Saturday. The significant other in my life made plans for me that day. Some stupid dinner with stupid friends scheduled a long time ago. Women...can't live with them....................................
We now know who the boss is and why you have no ( or stupid ) friends :)
Oh. I know who the boss is. There is never any debate about that. It’s why I post here. I have a better chance of winning an argument with you numbskulls :)
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
SaintLouBrave22
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 17672
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:37 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: vs SIU

Post by SaintLouBrave22 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:55 pm

tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:30 pm


Oh. I know who the boss is. There is never any debate about that. It’s why I post here. I have a better chance of winning an argument with you numbskulls :)
Isn't everyone's significant other the boss...whether you want to admit it or not?

I'm just happy I still get to do some things I did before I became 'attached'
---If you need it, you don't have it. If you have it you don't need it. But if you need and you don't have it, you want it. If you don't have any of it, then you really don't know how to get more to get started then do you?---

User avatar
pndbaseball12
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 4632
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:15 pm
Location: Columbia, MO

Re: vs SIU

Post by pndbaseball12 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:33 pm

SaintLouBrave22 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:55 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:30 pm


Oh. I know who the boss is. There is never any debate about that. It’s why I post here. I have a better chance of winning an argument with you numbskulls :)
Isn't everyone's significant other the boss...whether you want to admit it or not?

I'm just happy I still get to do some things I did before I became 'attached'
Amen. My golf game falls squarely in line with your second comment. :)
The difference between the impossible and the possible lies in a mans determination
-Tommy Lasorda

User avatar
dogsrus
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 10638
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:49 pm

Re: vs SIU

Post by dogsrus » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:44 am

pndbaseball12 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:33 pm
SaintLouBrave22 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:55 pm
tribecalledquest wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:30 pm


Oh. I know who the boss is. There is never any debate about that. It’s why I post here. I have a better chance of winning an argument with you numbskulls :)
Isn't everyone's significant other the boss...whether you want to admit it or not?

I'm just happy I still get to do some things I did before I became 'attached'
Amen. My golf game falls squarely in line with your second comment. :)

Just do what I have done....irritate her so much she ends up saying...." shouldn't you be golfing today." :td
So I was in the airport the other day and I saw AL B., PM me if you want more details.

User avatar
SFP
All World
All World
Posts: 3169
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:48 am

Re: vs SIU

Post by SFP » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:43 pm

tombs14 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:54 am
squirrel wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:47 am
That said, I am all for scoring early in possessions. Just don't force things, and don't put yourself at a disadvantage in the process.
Not to hijack in another direction, but that is the #1 philosophy Underwood is trying to bring as well for the Illini.

It seems like I've seen a lot of basketball these past few years where its scoring early, or settling for a terribly forced shot with less than 3 seconds on the clock. Nothing between, which means bad decision making, no vision, and/or not efficient ball movement.
Ball movement and making the extra pass for an easier basket is key. Takes a team mentality and not being selfish. A good shooting team though always makes an offense look better. The better offensive players are always moving without the ball and the better teams are not just sitting around watching hero ball.
"Wardle: Thanks for calling. I appreciate it."

User avatar
BradleyBrave
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 14244
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:51 pm
Location: Looking for players
Contact:

Re: vs SIU

Post by BradleyBrave » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:49 am

Interesting comments from their AD. Isn’t the league championship and NCAA’s the goal every year? What if Barry falls short this year? What happens then?

http://siusalukis.com/news/2018/3/31/ge ... ition.aspx
“Bradley is a dream job for me. Why Bradley? It’s very simple. I knew all about Bradley growing up. I played at Carver Arena a couple of times. We didn’t win those games, but I plan on winning a lot there in the future.” - Brian Wardle, March 27, 2015

bradley_townie
DieHard (50 posts)
DieHard (50 posts)
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:33 am

Re: vs SIU

Post by bradley_townie » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:25 am

BradleyBrave wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:49 am
Interesting comments from their AD. Isn’t the league championship and NCAA’s the goal every year? What if Barry falls short this year? What happens then?

http://siusalukis.com/news/2018/3/31/ge ... ition.aspx
Barry's seat just got a lot warmer. It's one thing to privately have that goal, but when the AD makes it public to appease the fans and boosters, the bar has been set.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests