Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

BradleyHoops.com: For the civil discussion of Bradley University men's basketball
Post Reply
User avatar
JD
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 5558
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 4:59 pm
Location: Heartland

Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by JD » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:41 am

Does Loyola's run, following, of course, all of the Shocker deep runs, put pressure on Wardle and BU and the rest of the Valley coaches and teams to not just make NCAA's but make deep runs?

Do leashes for coaches get shorter?

I saw a tweet about Beilein and Jay Wright and their early records, which weren't good. They were given time to build. But those days seem gone now.
“Is a dream a lie when it don’t come true, or is it something worse?”

User avatar
dogsrus
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 10782
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:49 pm

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by dogsrus » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:47 am

JD wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:41 am
Does Loyola's run, following, of course, all of the Shocker deep runs, put pressure on Wardle and BU and the rest of the Valley coaches and teams to not just make NCAA's but make deep runs?

Do leashes for coaches get shorter?

I saw a tweet about Beilein and Jay Wright and their early records, which weren't good. They were given time to build. But those days seem gone now.
I hope so...!!!
So I was in the airport the other day and I saw AL B., PM me if you want more details.

User avatar
squirrel
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 29447
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:45 pm
Location: Peoria, IL

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by squirrel » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:43 am

Leashes are going to continue to get shorter until the NCAA Tournament expands to 96 teams. We've seen schools well below the Valley level canning guys that have league titles (multiple) and no NCAAs in recent years. Job security isn't linked to performance so much as it is NCAA appearances.
"[. . .] and it would be foolish to gobble up sliders when there’s a steak hidden in the fridge." -Kirk Wessler

User avatar
tribecalledquest
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 19876
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by tribecalledquest » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:45 am

squirrel wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:43 am
Leashes are going to continue to get shorter until the NCAA Tournament expands to 96 teams. We've seen schools well below the Valley level canning guys that have league titles (multiple) and no NCAAs in recent years. Job security isn't linked to performance so much as it is NCAA appearances.
This is true. The high salaries are also at play here. Schools play mid six figures they kind of want a return on that investment. These quick triggers aren't happening at the D2 and D3 level.
"When the speech condemns a free press, you are hearing the words of a tyrant."
~Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Lake Camelot
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 3903
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:40 pm

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by Lake Camelot » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:34 pm

I think it makes things easier for Wardle and BU. Does nothing for leashes. if he is successful for the next 8 years and never wins a NCAA game, then the leash may get short. We should be able to show recruits and fans that we are almost there (conference championship) and you can accomplish anything once you make the tournament.

I have exactly the opposite reaction to Loyola's run. It helps Everything to me.

User avatar
SaintLouBrave22
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 17726
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:37 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by SaintLouBrave22 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:44 pm

I believe each situation at each institution is different...

Would schools like Drake and Indiana State be happy with a couple Valley titles and NCAAT appearances every 10 years...most likely.

Would Bradley? Maybe, maybe not.

Perception, fan base, donors, etc all play into this...


Just look at SIU right now. Picked to finish 5th, but finish 2nd without an all-conf performer and a depleted roster, yet there is a ton of uproar of not being happy with the program direction or who is leading it.


Outside the conference, UTA is another prime example that SQ mentioned before.


Again, different sets of circumstances, expectations, and realities for different places.
---If you need it, you don't have it. If you have it you don't need it. But if you need and you don't have it, you want it. If you don't have any of it, then you really don't know how to get more to get started then do you?---

User avatar
JD
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 5558
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 4:59 pm
Location: Heartland

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by JD » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:14 pm

Man, I would just like to win the Valley Tournament once in a while. 1988 is just ridiculous.
“Is a dream a lie when it don’t come true, or is it something worse?”

User avatar
squirrel
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 29447
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:45 pm
Location: Peoria, IL

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by squirrel » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:28 pm

Sure, winning a tourney would be nice. But if we're good enough to win titles most years, those will follow. I'd rather be relevant most of the time, than just sporadically.

The major reason we're irrelevant now is because people didn't think averaging 2.25 as an average place of finish was acceptable over an 8-year span in the last part of the 1990's, but then immediately defended bottom-division finishes when changing directions didn't produce the results that many assumed were easier than they realized.

My standards for the program have never waivered-however-there have been times when I've demanded more patience because fixing lowered standards is a lot trickier once you've done that over a decade.

Once Wardle fixes this thing, we should only rarely ever be outside the top 4 in our league.
"[. . .] and it would be foolish to gobble up sliders when there’s a steak hidden in the fridge." -Kirk Wessler

User avatar
SaintLouBrave22
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 17726
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:37 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by SaintLouBrave22 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:38 pm

JD wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:14 pm
Man, I would just like to win the Valley Tournament once in a while. 1988 is just ridiculous.
One of only 3 of the 10 league programs to not win at Arch Madness. (one in new member Valparaiso)
---If you need it, you don't have it. If you have it you don't need it. But if you need and you don't have it, you want it. If you don't have any of it, then you really don't know how to get more to get started then do you?---

real fan
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 5559
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:23 pm

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by real fan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:04 pm

SaintLouBrave22 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:38 pm
JD wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:14 pm
Man, I would just like to win the Valley Tournament once in a while. 1988 is just ridiculous.
One of only 3 of the 10 league programs to not win at Arch Madness. (one in new member Valparaiso)
That to me is the most disgusting thing about BU basketball as far as being a fan since the 60"s.

User avatar
dss03
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 4752
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:51 pm

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by dss03 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:39 pm

squirrel wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:28 pm
Sure, winning a tourney would be nice. But if we're good enough to win titles most years, those will follow. I'd rather be relevant most of the time, than just sporadically.

The major reason we're irrelevant now is because people didn't think averaging 2.25 as an average place of finish was acceptable over an 8-year span in the last part of the 1990's, but then immediately defended bottom-division finishes when changing directions didn't produce the results that many assumed were easier than they realized.

My standards for the program have never waivered-however-there have been times when I've demanded more patience because fixing lowered standards is a lot trickier once you've done that over a decade.

Once Wardle fixes this thing, we should only rarely ever be outside the top 4 in our league.

Not to relitigate things, but now with 15 years of hindsight it’s pretty painfully easy to see how fighting tooth and nail over the need for an exciting style of play is a suitable definition of a “rich man problem”.
FunchessonPopcorn - "DSS03 is fantastic!"

User avatar
dss03
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 4752
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:51 pm

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by dss03 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:49 pm

JD wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:41 am
Does Loyola's run, following, of course, all of the Shocker deep runs, put pressure on Wardle and BU and the rest of the Valley coaches and teams to not just make NCAA's but make deep runs?

Do leashes for coaches get shorter?

I saw a tweet about Beilein and Jay Wright and their early records, which weren't good. They were given time to build. But those days seem gone now.
When you get in, there has become more of an expectation that you do something with it for sure. I don’t think getting in repeatedly and getting bounced first weekend is going to cost anyone a job though. Getting in once doesn’t buy you many years after at most schools though.

Having a strong AD to manage expectations and make good decisions when fans experience disappointment (the customer is not always right) is underrated.
FunchessonPopcorn - "DSS03 is fantastic!"

User avatar
MissouriValleyUnite
Silver Poster (250 posts)
Silver Poster (250 posts)
Posts: 311
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 11:23 am

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by MissouriValleyUnite » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:33 am

JD wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:41 am
Does Loyola's run, following, of course, all of the Shocker deep runs, put pressure on Wardle and BU and the rest of the Valley coaches and teams to not just make NCAA's but make deep runs?

Do leashes for coaches get shorter?
No they get longer.

Loyola under Porter
—HL—
1-17
5-11
—MVC—
4-14
8-10
7-11
8-10
Final Four

What Loyola, Bradley, and S Illinois (pre-crazy people) are doing is how you rebuild programs. Continuity, chemistry, culture, confidence.


Winning Thursday night games early in a coach’s tenure are now validated as credible building blocks. Wichita won on Thursday the night before the Booker Woodfox buzzer beater. 4 years later, they were in the Final Four. Loyola beat us on a Thursday Milton Doyle buzzer beater. 4 years later, they were in the Final Four.

Lottich, Walter, Ford, DeVries will be given long leashes. As long as they make it to Friday early enough.


You know what’s funny? Porter/Barry/Wardle side-by-side who all inherited 250+ RPI programs.
PoMo Barry Brian
1-17 | 6-12 | 3-15
5-11 | 9-9 | 7-11
4-14 | 4-14 | 9-9
8-10 | 11-7
7-11 | 9-9
8-10 | 11-7
Final 4 | ?

User avatar
squirrel
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 29447
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:45 pm
Location: Peoria, IL

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by squirrel » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:16 am

MissouriValleyUnite wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:33 am


Winning Thursday night games early in a coach’s tenure are now validated as credible building blocks.
Not in my world.
"[. . .] and it would be foolish to gobble up sliders when there’s a steak hidden in the fridge." -Kirk Wessler

User avatar
BradleyBrave
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 14398
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:51 pm
Location: Looking for players
Contact:

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by BradleyBrave » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:56 am

squirrel wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:16 am
MissouriValleyUnite wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:33 am


Winning Thursday night games early in a coach’s tenure are now validated as credible building blocks.
Not in my world.
I think it's all about context. Winning a Thursday game last year was a building block IMO. It took Les and Geno 4 years to win a d@mn game down there. BW got it done in 2, and we took a Final Four team to the brink in Year 3. But I think the identity started to get formed when we went to war with Wichita the year before in STL. Yes, the game ended up being a 30 point drubbing. But we physically went to war with them in the 1st half, and at the very least made them give their best to put us down. It set the tone for this year, and had we lost last year on Thursday I don't know if that identity starts to form...at least maybe not as quickly as it did.
“Bradley is a dream job for me. Why Bradley? It’s very simple. I knew all about Bradley growing up. I played at Carver Arena a couple of times. We didn’t win those games, but I plan on winning a lot there in the future.” - Brian Wardle, March 27, 2015

User avatar
SaintLouBrave22
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 17726
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:37 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by SaintLouBrave22 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:09 am

Whats entertaining about your post MVU is that outside of this crazy run for Loyola this year, Barry Hinson has outperformed him close to wire to wire, yet the SIU nuts want to run him out on a rail.
---If you need it, you don't have it. If you have it you don't need it. But if you need and you don't have it, you want it. If you don't have any of it, then you really don't know how to get more to get started then do you?---

User avatar
SaintLouBrave22
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 17726
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:37 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by SaintLouBrave22 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:14 am

BradleyBrave wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:56 am
squirrel wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:16 am
MissouriValleyUnite wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:33 am


Winning Thursday night games early in a coach’s tenure are now validated as credible building blocks.
Not in my world.
I think it's all about context. Winning a Thursday game last year was a building block IMO. It took Les and Geno 4 years to win a d@mn game down there. BW got it done in 2, and we took a Final Four team to the brink in Year 3. But I think the identity started to get formed when we went to war with Wichita the year before in STL. Yes, the game ended up being a 30 point drubbing. But we physically went to war with them in the 1st half, and at the very least made them give their best to put us down. It set the tone for this year, and had we lost last year on Thursday I don't know if that identity starts to form...at least maybe not as quickly as it did.
I think identity helps when you have players getting around to believing in what the coaches are selling them and having the right players in place to execute what style those coaches are wanting to play...

Accountability between players has helped a great deal as well....because in the short tenure that Ford had, I don't think anyone else besides Walt ever held the rest of the guys accountable for anything they did on the floor.


I will say this, a Thu night W is only a building block if you don't end up in the same spot the next year. We talk about this all the time, but it holds little weight for schools like Bradley, Drake, and Evansville who have been such doormats in Arch Madness...

You have to be able to take the W and build off it into the next year and get out of Thu.


We finally did that this year and hopefully will continue that upward climb towards the peak of the mountain.....


We seemingly have the right AD in place and the right staff in place, we just need that staff to get us the right players for the last couple legs of that climb.
---If you need it, you don't have it. If you have it you don't need it. But if you need and you don't have it, you want it. If you don't have any of it, then you really don't know how to get more to get started then do you?---

User avatar
shaunguth
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:03 pm

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by shaunguth » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:37 pm

BradleyBrave wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:56 am
I think it's all about context. Winning a Thursday game last year was a building block IMO. It took Les and Geno 4 years to win a d@mn game down there. BW got it done in 2, and we took a Final Four team to the brink in Year 3.
I sure hope BW can get us to the Sweet 16 quicker than it took Les!
"There's more to the game than shooting. There's fundamentals and defense."

User avatar
dogsrus
All Universe
All Universe
Posts: 10782
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:49 pm

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?/\/\

Post by dogsrus » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:52 pm

/\/\.... much of what you (SLB ) just said is exactly why i asked, in another thread, are these last two rides as importaint of scholarships as we have had to give out in a long time.

While it’s not fair to place such a huge burden on two prospective recruits to help wipe away the agony a fanbase has endured all these years keep in mind they will be PART of team that has reached this point to date. It’s like we got a real good car... nice engine but need two excellent rear wheels to give us traction...

We are ready to make a big jump and if we swing and miss for the final two rides we may lose that traction two good rear wheels can give us..... if we nail it and get a program changer or two or at the very least a solid starter ( pushing someone to the bench ) we could take that next big step!!!

The time is now!!!!!!
So I was in the airport the other day and I saw AL B., PM me if you want more details.

BigB
Regular (25 posts)
Regular (25 posts)
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:19 am

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by BigB » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:40 pm

Valley Hoops guy seems to be saying ISU is the best team in the MVC
and that Zach Copeland is their best player. Now if Abdou is eligible, they should go undefeated.
http://www.valleyhoopsinsider.com/illin ... cary-good/

User avatar
SFP
All World
All World
Posts: 3197
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Question for Valley teams after Loyola?

Post by SFP » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:28 pm

I do not care about how the other schools react. I only care about BU and I'm fine as long as our coach continues to build a great foundation and starts adding the pieces for continued long term success. In short I'm fine with giving Wardle a bit more time to build this program back from the ashes. I really like their plan as we see it roll out. Of course there's this thing called recruiting that needs to pan out to get to the next level and let's face it that it is a bit harder at BU then a few other schools in The Valley, due to grades and such.
"Wardle: Thanks for calling. I appreciate it."

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests